mashed in maryland
3:41 Wed Sep 21
Re: Rap "music"
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Fucking hell, think I managed to trump Infidel himself in the "length of post" award for the day there.
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mashed in maryland
3:40 Wed Sep 21
Re: Rap "music"
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You're looking at it wrong, Inf, not really about them "cleaning up their act".
Rap started as party music, mostly for kids to breakdance to. Gangsta rap came much later in the late 80s, almost a decade after Rapper's Delight. Before that (aside from a handful of Ice T and Too Short tracks) its almost impossible to find anything that mentions gangs and violence let alone glorifies it.
There's a fair amount from back which is all about sex though granted but again it was in a minority and only so well-known now cos of how outrageous it was.
To be honest though if you look at "white" youth music from back then, a lot of it was far more obnoxious and violent and explicit than what hip-hop was.
You're absolutely right that the roots mean there's always gonna be violence/crime/drugs, that even goes back to the roots in the 60s (Watts Prophets et al) but the original rap from the late 70s and throughout most of the 80s, despite the stereotypes, was trying to *ESCAPE* all that.
NWA (from their 2nd album onwards) etc were so notable because they went the opposite way and embraced it, and since record companies etc figured out there's an enormous market, that sort of stuff has been pushed to the front.
There's a huge thing in rap/hiphop culture about what is "real hip-hop", a lot of purists insist its all about partying and having a good time (and share a lot of the opinions on everything else with most of this thread), there are people who think it should be "real" in the sense of talking about reality (which happens to be guns and gangs etc), others who say its all about the lyrics, some who say it should be political, others who say anything past a certain date doesn't count, etc etc etc.
The "underground" scene has (very generally speaking) been far more about lyrical content and wordplay than bragging or violence, this was especially true in the UK until quite recently. In fact apart from passing references and acknowledgement it's usually been shunned.
But even re gangs/bitches/niggas... there are books, poems, pieces of music out there which are about subjects far darker and more removed from any of our lives than anything that goes on in the ghetto. It's possible to appreciate them without agreeing what they're all about, and rap is absolutely no different. I'm not expecting anyone to like anything, but it's unfair and dishonest to write it all off because of how you view the subject matter.
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Infidel
3:17 Wed Sep 21
Re: Rap "music"
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MiM
I accept the criticism that I am not an expert.
Doubtless some rappers have cleaned up their lyrics and tried to sanitise their music.
But it remains a fact that rap is the cultural anthem of black inner city ghettos in the United States and without its roots in violence and hatred it could not exist as an art form at all.
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White Pony
2:47 Wed Sep 21
Re: Rap "music"
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There's loads of rap music out there with lyrics that aren't about f*cking b*tches and money and guns. It's lazy and ignorant to tar a whole genre with that brush, but that's nothing new I guess.
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zebthecat
2:34 Wed Sep 21
Re: Rap "music"
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mashed in maryland 2:26 Wed Sep 21
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mashed in maryland
2:26 Wed Sep 21
Re: Rap "music"
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Fair enough, you're blocking yourself off from a huge selection of massively varied music though because of common misconceptions (which could be applied to almost any other type of music).
I'm not arguing to be a cunt (for once), it's just genuinely a bit frustrating to see sometimes and I like helping people out.
I bid you good day.
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Saul Bollox
2:19 Wed Sep 21
Re: Rap "music"
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MiM
Your rationalisations of this garbage indicates that you are are obviously intelligent. It is therefore incomprehensible that that you find rap music anything other tha anti social shit.
Either that or you are in the pop industry and you are validating your raison d'etre.
Either way I doubt we would ever agree so I'll leave it there.
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mashed in maryland
1:03 Wed Sep 21
Re: Rap "music"
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Saul Bollox 12:49 Wed Sep 21
Listen to anything by Big L, Rakim, Common, AZ, Nas, even Eminem, and tell me its "simplistic". Multi-syllabic rhyming schemes, metaphores, wordplay etc like they pioneered and developed isn't just something any old spaz can knock up overnight.
You also don't have to agree or identify with the subject matter to recognise the talent and effort put into it, and it's the lyrical skill that a lot of serious hip-hop heads prize over subject matter, which is why Big Pun is so lauded even when he mostly spoke about guns and drugs and sex.
As for
"Having musical forms which do not require talent is a great thing for the producers. It's easier to find people who look the part than people who have any kind of musical talent"
You've just described the dad generation's attitude to basically all music ever.
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mashed in maryland
12:56 Wed Sep 21
Re: Rap "music"
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Inf, it seems you've attached your own definition to "rap"; namely a relatively small (although very noticeable) subgenre of it.
It's exactly like me saying "ah, you said rock & roll, I'm talking about "heavy metal" and then going on to describe the entire genre based on a Cannibal Corpse bootleg I heard once.
FWIW I love punk and heavy metal, but much of it is far more juvenile and negative than most hip-hop I listen to.
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Coffee
12:52 Wed Sep 21
Re: Rap "music"
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Musically and otherwise, rap is missing a C.
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Saul Bollox
12:49 Wed Sep 21
Re: Rap "music"
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What infidel wrote about the lyrics is true. Musically rap is non existant changes of notation and harmony have been abstracted, and what is left is an electric rhythm and a voice reciting simplistic poetry. Having musical forms which do not require talent is a great thing for the producers. It's easier to find people who look the part than people who have any kind of musical talent..
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Infidel
12:36 Wed Sep 21
Re: Rap "music"
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Darby
The OP is specifically about rap, not hip-hop.
Doubtless it evolved from other musical influences (as nearly all genres do) but what makes it distinctive is its violent, abusive, misogynistic and hateful lyrics.
For me it come down to what kind of world we want our kids to grow up in.
On the one hand you have the vast majority of artistic and creative output which aims to make the world a more beautiful and kinder place.
On the other you have people who use art to spread hatred and violence, glorifying the use of guns and other weapons, murder (especially of police officers) and advocating the rape and humiliation of women.
Their contribution to society is entirely destructive. I don't see why I should view rappers with anything other than contempt.
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Darby_
11:39 Wed Sep 21
Re: Rap "music"
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I don't like gangster rap either, Infi, but that's only one sub-genre of hip hop.
A bit like saying you don't like rock because of heavy metal.
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Tomshardware
10:11 Wed Sep 21
Re: Rap "music"
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The Anfield Rap.
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BRANDED
10:07 Wed Sep 21
Re: Rap "music"
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It pisses over the Beatles
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dicksie3
9:15 Wed Sep 21
Re: Rap "music"
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I fucking love rap and hip-hop...
You motherfucker...
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mashed in maryland
9:08 Wed Sep 21
Re: Rap "music"
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Read some more of the thread inf, as there is plenty of rap out there which is nothing like what you're describing and some which is bitterly resentful and cynical of it.
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mashed in maryland
9:07 Wed Sep 21
Re: Rap "music"
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I'm not saying anything is shit SB. My point is that every single blanket criticism of rap here has been levelled at other types of music now considered classic and that many people on here likely enjoy, and also sometimes re melody/talent etc, sometimes when it comes to enjoyment, simplicity is key
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Infidel
9:05 Wed Sep 21
Re: Rap "music"
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It isn't music.
Its purpose is to give young people a fantasy ride in which they can adopt the culture of violent gangs in American cities without taking any personal risks or committing any crimes.
Thus they can mouth words about killing policemen and beating up women behind a protective screen of appreciation for the 'art' of rap music.
One can understand young people buying into the fantasy because it's what young people do, but anyone over about 25 who claims to like rap music is desperately sad.
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Eerie Descent
9:02 Wed Sep 21
Re: Rap "music"
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It's not the genre of music that I'm personally into, but there's some great Rap that has been made that I'll delve into now and again.
If you listen to 'Made You Look' by Nas, and can't appreciate it, you don't like music.
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